Episode 63:

The Power of Choice. How to use this in your Travel Business and Life to Grow with Clare Cope

You can listen directly here. 

Confused? Lost? Uncertain? These feelings are not unknown to us as humans, and at a guess, I would say each of us as Travel Advisors may have felt one or more of these emotions and feelings over the last couple of years, if not our entire Travel Business Career at different times. 

It’s these feelings and emotions that can also hinder us as humans to operate to the best of our capabilities even when trying to set our travel business up for success. 

If you have found yourself experiencing these feelings even recently, it’s ok, you are not alone. 

In today's episode, my discussion with Psychologist Clare Cope really opens up the thought process and ideas around focus, around choice and what we can and can’t control.  

Clare, in her profession and career, helps individuals, teams and businesses develop a pattern of thinking designed to help them get from where they are to where they want to be. 

She works through thought patterns to change perspective on how we are seeing things at the moment. 

We also discuss how to create a mindset for success despite all the things going on around us. 

The Power of Choice. Clare and I talk about this and how simple shifts can lift stress and weight off your shoulders. Not only that but also how this power can create a big impact on your mindset and travel business. 

What are the things that you can do right now for your travel business? What choice do you have right now? 

A big takeaway from this episode is around not being able to give, what you don’t have. I hope that resonates with you too. Being able to make decisions around what you CAN focus on and avoiding where possible or putting boundaries in place to not take on the ‘unknown.’ 

We encourage you to continue to be transparent, elevate yourself and show your expertise to your clients. 

Make sure you stay up to date with the podcast by subscribing and downloading our free resources and checklists to help you with your travel business and let us know what you want to learn about to help your travel business grow.

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Links Mentioned in the Episode

Values Pendulum - Discover Your Lens

Complete your thought code profile 


Values Pendulum 

Thought Code 

Capability Development Solutions 

Clare’s Social Media Pages: Values Pendulum Facebook Page, Linkedin Page 

Quotes from this Episode

“If you're dealing with a lot more uncertainty and a lot more unknowns, the more you try to get that certainty. The more you try to ask the questions to get the answers that you think you need to have to provide the same level of certainty that you're providing for clients beforehand, the more you're going to feel unfulfilled, the more pressure you're going to put on yourself, the more stress because you just can't control that there's unknown for a reason”. - Clare Cope 

“People want to know that they are seen, that they are heard and that they matter” - Clare Cope 

“The only thing you have choice or power over is yourself” - Clare Cope

“Move from anger to compassion” - Clare Cope

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Show Transcription: 

Announcer: Welcome to Travel Agent Achievers. The place to learn how to grow your travel business and have fun with it. Join Roslyn and her guests as they walk you through proven steps to a fulfilling and profitable business.


Ros: Hey everyone, welcome to the Travel Agent Achievers podcast. It's Ros here your host and fun loving cheerleader, the person who will be here to support you on your travel business journey. Today though I have a very special guest in Clare Cope. Clare has a diverse background. 


First of all, she's amazing. She started out as a psychologist and she's worked in the areas of counselling, psychology, sports psychology, and predominantly organisational psychology, psychology. Man, this is a hard word. She has worked as a business consultant in large multinational companies. She was the readiness manager on the organisation committee for the Commonwealth Games in Melbourne, and over the last 15 years has coached leadership teams across a range of industries, solving problems related to business growth, strategic direction and human performance. I told you, she was amazing. 


As the core of Clare’s work, she helps individuals, teams and businesses develop a pattern of thinking designed to help them get from where they are to where they want to be. She feels that to achieve success in life in business, we need to know how to adapt and flex our thinking, to remove obstacles in our way and utilise our strengths powerfully. That's why she created Thought Code and values pendulum. Both of these are profile tools. And they're designed in the modern age for modern businesses tackling challenges unique to the 21st century. 


Now, that may have sounded like a whole lot of stuff. But I can assure you that Clare is one of the most incredible human beings in my life. And I have known her for a few years now, not only is she amazing at business, but has created all of these things to help you as our audience. And businesses around the world really just continue to grow, find their challenges, and bring them into this new area. Era. 


So welcome, Clare, thank you so much for coming. And joining me on the Travel Agent Achievers podcast.


Clare: Oh, Ros, you're most welcome. And what a beautiful introduction. I feel like I need to wrap you up and put you in my pocket and take you everywhere with me. So when someone says what is it that you do Clare, I can just pull you out. And you can explain it so beautifully in your beautiful tone of voice and so eloquently. So thank you, it's such a pleasure to be here. And I'm really looking forward to sharing some insights with you over this time that we have together.


Ros: Yes, psychologist like that, just for me, elevates you into this whole different realm of understanding people. And I love when I get to spend a bit of time with you. But we could talk for hours, like literally, we have spoken until 3am In the morning, standing on a set of stairs, not even realising the time. But you have this incredible gift to where you're able to help people and shift mindsets. And I've seen you do this many, many times. And I am just so grateful that you're here and that we get a bit of your time. 


And so today, I really wanted to talk about a couple of things like just to give you some insight into the travel industry. I mean right now where we're at. 


So it's almost the end of February 2022. And the world is starting to open up. And it's amazing on travel. Bring it on, we're going to have an incredible timing, once again, hopefully exploring this incredible planet that we live on. 


But for right now I'm starting to see this massive shift, once again, like we did in February and March 2020, where travel advisors around the world back then were in this state of confusion and going into hibernation or not really knowing what to do, how to move forward, what was happening to their business. 


Whereas now, we're coming out of that time. And we're actually seeing travel advisors, you know, go into a place of confusion, or travel advisors who are now thinking I had to go and get a job. And I really love travelling, I want to come back to this, but I don't know where I should sit and what I should do. So today I wanted to, you know, see if we can unpack a few things around the power of choice. 


And we've discussed this briefly. But just hearing you know, where the travel advisors were the uncertainty, you know, the loss of business, the kick in the guts, it's been a real roller coaster. And that's how I've explained it over the last couple of years. 


Just the icky feelings and how are we going to get through this time and what can we do to save our business? When you've worked with businesses all over the world? And even over the last couple of years, you just haven't stopped? 


So I mean, I mean, what would you suggest like where are we at the moment? I don't want to see people go back to where they were pre COVID, which was rocking in a corner. You know, how am I going to handle all this amount of business? I'm here for the lifestyle. I want to live the dream. Yeah, like, there's so many choices now we're there. What do we do? Yeah.


Clare: Red pill, blue pill? Which one do we take? 


Ros:  Green light? orange light. Red light? Yes. 


Clare: Exactly. So I think it's, it is, it's a very interesting time. And, and when in all the work that I do, whether it's with individuals or businesses, this new term that we're hearing about, you know, returning to the what the new normal is, I think we're still waiting for what that is, or some people just want it to go back to how it was. And other people, there's a pocket of people that are seeing it as a silver lining and opportunity to do things differently, which is leading to, you know, you would have heard of great resignation and things like that when people are in life, and I don't want to do this job anymore. And I've actually really enjoyed being home with my children. They're actually really nice people. And I quite like them. And they'd like me to say that I had one client who actually discovered spending this time with my children that I really liked them. They're pretty cool people. And they've really enjoyed having me at home. 


Ros: So start homeschooling.


Clare: Yeah, or even, you know, can I have some flexible working conditions and work from home a little bit? Or, you know, it's just, it's changing people's priorities, which I think is a really good thing. It's also starting to change conversations in the workplace around, what does it mean to actually be productive? What does wellbeing actually mean? How do we take care of people's needs? How do we see them as human beings and not just a resource that is there to produce something during the time that they're at work? 


So I think from the biggest picture, I think that this is, you know, COVID has kind of enabled some of the conversations that needed to happen to actually happen and actually start occurring within the workplace and within our own minds, as well as to what's actually important. 


Having said all of that, at the core of it, we're still left with and as you said, it's this roller coaster, this uncertainty, what do I do? You know, we still watch things that are opening up, we still don't know if they're going to stay open, like, what's going to happen in three months from now? 


And what are the rules that are changing? And particularly in the travel industry? What are all the different rules and conditions that are present in each country? And how do I help a client navigate through all of that, you know, to give the client the clients operating in uncertainty? How do I provide certainty for them, when I'm not even that certain myself of what's going on and what's happening in my own life. 


So it is, it is a lot of balls, if you want to be juggling in the air, a lot of thoughts going around in the head. And if you're somebody that normally likes a bit more certainty and likes to operate with, you know, crossing the T's and dotting the eyes and having a clear pathway and knowing how to get from A to B, it does leave people feeling very much out of control, and powerless. And the word the word for COVID. That has actually come out and I don't know if you've heard of it is languishing. Have you heard of that one? Before, Ros? 


Ros: No, I was thinking of another word. But it's a bad word.


Clare: It's a bad way to change it. I've heard it all and yes, that's also relevant people also feeling that as well. Now, but it's this state of languishing is a really interesting one. 


So it's, you know, and I started noticing it when I'm speaking with clients a lot and they're like, Claire, I'm not, you know, I'm, I'm not sad. I'm not like curled up in the corner of the room in the fetal position rocking back and forth like I'm not in that deep depressive state. But I'm also not happy. I'm not, you know, bursting with joy and, and happy and I'm not, I'm not so depressed that I feel like there's no hope left at all. 


But I also don't feel hopeful. So it's kind of looking at these two ends of the spectrum where I'm not, you know, I'm not not functioning, but I'm not functioning at the same time. And so what we've discovered is this whole middle ground that sits in the middle there, and it's and the term that we're using for it is languishing. So it's just that, as you said before, it's just that blah feelings is that icky feeling, where


Ros: They're not the answer. It's the uncertainty in not knowing and career. I don't know whether I want to and that's the conversations that I'm having. I don't know whether I want to be booking or promoting travel yet, or I'd, you know, I feel like I need to sit back a little bit or, you know, I don't have the energy to do something that I used to love. But yeah, I know. I feel like I should be there. Yeah, languishing, okay?


Clare: So languishing, right, so it's, it's kind of a middle ground, where it just, it just feels icky. Right? And so what we want to check in that state, so if you are kind of feeling that if you kind of feel like that's right, I kind of feel like I'm not I'm not bursting out of my skin with motivational purpose or joy or hope or whatever. 


But I'm also not, you know, so depressed or so sad that I can't do anything, right? I'm kind of in this middle state where sometimes I find myself feeling a bit, you know, sad. I go through a bit of a dull moment and I'm feeling a bit low. Might shed a bit of a tear or something like that. But then, you know, an hour later I'm probably laughing at something so how is that possible for me to be experiencing those range of emotions without having that certainty without having that clarity of purpose and knowing what I want to do. 


So if you are feeling that way, one thing to start with is really look at what's the pressure and the expectation that you're putting on yourself. Because quite often what's sitting there particularly over imagined Ros with a lot of your, a lot of your group, a lot of your community, you're sitting there going, playing out a lot of shoulds, I should be doing something, I should be researching these, I should be more excited, because the borders are opening up in countries that opening up, I should be planning for things I shouldn't be contacting my clients, I should be, you know, I could do this, like all of these shoulds and codes, right? 


This place a lot of unnecessary pressure on someone and creates even more uncertainty and place a lot of expectations on yourself that you may not be able to fulfill. Okay, so just check at the moment, what are all the shoulds? What are all the coulds that you're, you're creating a list for yourself? That's adding a lot of unnecessary pressure adding a lot of unnecessary stress, particularly if they're related to things that you just don't know the answer to. 


So I would imagine, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine that we're particularly in the travel industry at the moment, there's things that you know, and things that probably remain pretty certain things that are certain. That might be a small percentage at the moment, then there's things that you know, for now, that could change. And then there's a whole category of things that you just don't know, and you just don't know where it's gonna land, right? Yep. And that last category may be quite a high percentage or a higher percentage than what you're operating with before. Is that pretty right?


Ros: Absolutely. And I think that last section as well, is where, you know, for me and the people that I'm connecting with is anxiety around that. Yeah. And the fear of the unknown. 


So how do we handle this? How do we juggle this, and the only way that I've been able to explain it is for us to be able to communicate with our clients and customers and just share what we know and what we know to be true right now and the facts for right now and advise that anything could change. Yes. And, you know, we are trying to stay on top of things as much as possible. But our crystal balls are broken.


Clare:  Exactly. And that I think is going to be the hardest things for you guys. So that's exactly where I was going to go with that, where if you're dealing with a lot more uncertainty and a lot more unknowns, the more you try to get that certainty, the more you try to ask the questions to get the answers that you think that you need to have to provide the same level of certainty that you're providing for clients beforehand, the more you're going to feel unfulfilled, the more pressure you're going to put on yourself, the more stress because you just can't control that there's unknown for a reason. It's not like it's before it was kind of unknown to you, because you just didn't know the right question to ask where you hadn't experienced it before. That the answers were there. 


We live in a world now particularly at the moment where it's unknown for a reason. As in, nobody actually knows the answer to these questions, no matter what the information is saying. nobody actually knows how something's going to play out. Right? We're all learning this at the same time. We're all trying to figure it out as we go along. And I think clients at the moment, I think you'll find that people in the community. 


And definitely people are open to travel. They're wanting honesty, they're wanting transparency. They're not necessarily wanting as much certainty as what they wanted before, because they realise things are different. So if they are working with someone, if they're working with a travel agent, that's saying, here's what I know. And here's what you can bank on. This is something that I know, and is certain isn't going to change. 


Yeah. But here's what I hear about how these countries are currently operating. Or here's some of the rules that are currently in place. And we are monitoring these because it could change, it's likely to change. It's possible it could, you know, alter in some way and we're monitoring. So here's what we're doing to stay on top of it, to make sure that if something does shift and change, that we're ready, that we can give you the updated information as soon as we know about it. Okay, then in that third category, it's that we just don't know, this is what we think. 


But I have absolutely no idea. And I'm letting you know that because I can't give you the answer that you're probably looking for. Just be honest about it. Be transparent about it and say but here's, here's what I'm reading. Here's what I'm researching. Here's what I'm going to be across to try to find out some of these answers for you. And then put the responsibility. This is a big one. 


Ros: Oh yeah, waiting for this one.


Clare: Back on the client. Back to the person doing the travel. Now. This is going to be counter


Ros: Oh man, I'm just going, What are you talking about? We're, we're the professionals here, we should be the ones the answers, like, I take a lot of that responsibility myself. Yes, they will, I should know the answer, and I should be the one that they should again. So why do you think that that, then is their responsibility?


Clare: Okay, so I'm going to take it in a different context for you, and then bring it back in, right? So I would imagine, this is a really important conversation to have, particularly with your community, because they are a reflection of you. And certainly in the conversations that you and I have had, and where, you know, we're looking at your business and talking about your approach and your how you see the customer, how you see your client, how you want to work with them, you definitely do take on a lot of responsibility, a lot of care, a lot of duty of care towards the the person that that you're supporting, right. And it is a beautiful trait, and definitely not one that we want to lose. So we don't want to lose it. Okay.


Ros: Can I just stop you right there? Because we've had conversations over the last few years where you get on a session with somebody and they make them cry. I've got the tears welling up in my eyes right now. So everyone just knows that this has really touched my heart right now. Because I do care. And those are things that our clients know. We've got their back. And that's one thing that I will always say, I've got your back, and I am here for you no matter what.


Clare: Okay, and so we don't want to lose that. Because that does stand you apart, right. So yeah, it means so for me as a customer, it means well, I would want to engage you as a travel agent. Because I genuinely believe in what you're saying. And I do want that level of support. Right? Yeah, at the same time. 


So at the same time, okay. I also know that it is my decision to travel, it is my decision at the moment to go overseas, or whatever that travel might be for people, I can go interstate with a level of uncertainty that's there, right? It is still my choice. 


You didn't tell me that I needed to travel, you're not saying you need to go to these countries, you're not saying you need to have this experience. I chose that for me. Yes. 


So therefore, in your conversations, start you need it, I would recommend start weaving in your if you are just simple language, if you are choosing to go overseas at this time, if you're wanting this experience at this particular point in time, it does come with a level of uncertainty that hasn't been there before. And I will work with you. And I will partner with you to support that as much as possible. And make sure that I'm feeding you as much information as I possibly can.


However, I am limited by what countries and government departments and whatever other advisory boards that you need to be talking to, when they actually release the information, how clear they are on the information that they're providing, and the certainty with which it's going to stick for a period of time. 


So I'm very limited by that. However, if you're happy to work with me on that, and you're going to be adaptable and flexible and understanding of that, then we're going to have an awesome time. And you're going to have an awesome trip, right? 


So just put some of those caveats in there at the moment, which are very fair and reasonable. So let me take it out in a different context. Right. So let's just put it back onto me. So as a psychologist who let me ask you a question, Ros, it's a podcast. Who do you think is ultimately responsible for the change that the person is seeking? Is it me? Or is it the client? 


Ros: Say that again?


Clare: So it's responsible as a psychologist, right, I was looking for people who is responsible for the change that the person is wanting? 


Ros: The person. 


Clare: Correct. So in the travel industry, why is it any different?


Ros: Oh, yeah. That's my job.


Clare:   So it's my job, right? What is my job? So my job then, and this is what i This is the philosophy that I operate by, I believe that people are actually quite complex. Beautifully complex. Right. And I love it. I also believe that the person has the answer within them, they just don't know how to access it. That's so true.


Ros: I agree completely. Yeah.


Clare: So my job is therefore to act as a sounding board to listen with compassion, to be prepared to ask as many questions as I possibly can, regardless of whether they're right or wrong. It doesn't matter whether they're right or wrong. It's just a question designed to help generate insight for the client. And when needed, gently push gently, maybe not so gently, sometimes use some things to create, you know, to create that shift for them to help them make that shift to help them get the insight that they're after. 


Right Maybe to suggest some things along the way of actions that they could do approaches that they could take, whether they do it or not. Whether they believe the insight that they have come across or not, is 100% within their control, and is their responsibility, I cannot put myself in their mind. I cannot control them, right? 


Now, if that's true for the kind of work that I do around, you know, personal growth and development and helping people lead a fulfilling life and answer some of the big life questions that they've got. 


Is it also not true for people in your industry, where you're facilitating life experiences for people? Right, you're not saying to them, you know, we think that you should go and see, you should really go to, you know, Egypt and study the history there and have such an amazing experience there. And you really need to learn about that history because of how it affects us today. And it's phenomenal. Were there aliens? I don't know, we should go and find out. Right? 


You're not saying this is the thing that you must know, that you must have in order for you to grow as a human being or in order for you to have a fulfilling life? Or, you know, whatever, or to spend your money wisely. The client coming up with that?


Ros: Absolutely. That is their list. And that is their experience. We're just helping to curate it. And yes, to pull it all together to ensure that they get the most out of, you know, whatever dream they have.


Clare: Yeah, you're a partner on that journey. Yeah, but absolutely their journey, right. So it's a very similar thing, I see myself as a partner on someone's journey. But at the end of the day, it's the client's journey, and they still retain 100% control 100% power 100% responsibility. 


However, I also have a duty of care. And I take my job seriously. And I am responsible for making sure that the person is okay. And exploring as much opportunity as they possibly can. And I think when you find that balance as a travel consultant at the moment, if you can find that balance between, I am partnering with this client to ensure that I can facilitate the best possible experience for them in a very tricky environment at the moment. 


And as long as the client understands that we're partnering together, and that they're making the choice to travel at the moment that they're going to be operating or travelling, you know, in a world that is very uncertain. 


So there are no knowns, and there's known unknowns, and there's unknown unknowns. And we're all trying to do our best to work with that. Provide information, as long as I'm upfront. And I'm honest, and I'm transparent, we can find a really good relationship.


Ros:  Yep. Oh, absolutely. Thank you, Clare. I've just released a whole lot of stuff off my shoulders. I don’t mean to carry it. I know, I put a lot of that pressure on myself, as well, that I carry that. And I will often say one thing that you just said there that I was fascinated with, is I say that I'm an extension of their team. So especially working with corporates or large groups, well, I'm an extension of their team from the travel point of view. But I still listen to what the client wants and what they need. And I couldn't create the experience around that. But ultimately, it's their show.


Clare: Correct.  And it really does take for some people, and everybody's different on this. And it's not a good thing, it's not a bad thing. It's not, we don't need to label it as anything. We just need to understand where we sit on our preference around that and our ability to let go of some of that responsibility or let go of some of that control. 


And everybody's different. So some people will hear this and go, Oh, that makes sense. That's the bit that I needed to hear, Oh, that's a permission that I needed to hear. I'm good to go. I'll just be like, Oh, that sounds a bit unfamiliar. What is it that I actually need to do? Can I have language around that? Can I have some wording for that? Can I have a specific strategy for that? So I can practice it out? Right?


Ros: I was just going to ask you to take that next step like what are the action steps here that travel advisors can do? So if they're sitting on this going? While this is all really new to me, I thought that I was the be all and end all and that I had to be the source of information, I take full responsibility for my clients trips. So to release that in a way or to not necessarily give them isn't give the power away. I don't know whether that's even the right words. It's really just allowing the client to be in control of their own decisions, right? Yes,


Clare: It is. It's yeah, so I would still say still see yourself as a point of information. Yeah. Because that's why you would say that is a large portion of the role. You know, as I'm going to put myself in the clients position, I would expect that questions that I have, you would either have the answer for or would be able to know where to get the answer. 


Ros: Yeah, that's why you pay for that expertise.


Clare: Correct. So elevate yourself. This is an opportunity for travel agents to really elevate how they provide that information. So it's almost like on beforehand, if we were in pre COVID, it would be very transactional based. Right? I have questions that travel agents give me answer. Yes. My next question: the travel agent give me answer in certainty, right. I don't as a client, I don't even know I have a question. Although he's an amazing travel agent that has preempted a question I should be asking. And also given me the answer, right. Brilliant, that but it was kind of transactional. 


Here, it's now if we start thinking it's now a partnership. Okay. So even asking questions of the client, you know, we are operating in an uncertain world, things might change, what's your tolerance for that? So let's just just play out a few scenarios. Let's say you're overseas, you're in X country, or you're doing some activity, and the rules change, or circumstances change or something unexpected happens in relation to COVID? 


At the moment, or perhaps even anything else? Let's just keep it COVID. What's your tolerance for that? How do you think you might react? Do you think you'd be pretty cool, calm and collected? Or do you think you would go to the other end and be a little bit panicky and a little bit stressed in? Okay, so just wanting to understand what is the mindset of the client is the client actually going to be quite not easy to work with, but a little bit more workable is probably a better way to put it. And we're going to be able to partner with them in a way where they're going to allow me the time they're going to allow me the space to be able to get the information to help them out? Or are they going to be on the other end, quite panicky, and very erratic. 


Erratic is a great word, yeah. And have expectations. And if this is what we're checking for here is the expectation of I need, like, you should have preempted, they're going to come with the mindset of you should have preempted all of these unknowns, in order for me to have great chip, like, that's what you should have been doing. 


So when something does go pear shaped, you've already expected it to, you've already preempted it. And you've already got a solution, even though that set in the unknown unknowns, which is actually impossible for you to have thought through. Right.


Ros: Okay. So with that, so yeah, this is a conversation that you would suggest even right at the start.


Clare: Yeah, just right at the start. And just so you know, right. At the moment, you know, this is not normally a conversation that we would have with our clients, you know, in the in the world pre COVID, we wouldn't even be thinking about asking these questions, but what we're finding now is that it's useful to be able to, you know, ask our clients these questions, just to make sure that were mentally prepared, or that we're in a good headspace for what happened with the travel, okay, and just sort of do some comparisons, you know, before we kind of took travel a little bit for granted where we could, we could say, we wanted to go to a destination, we could hop on a plane, buy the tickets, go there, have an amazing experience, and come home and everything would be peachy. 


And the most that we had to be worried about was, maybe the flight got cancelled, or there was bad weather or, you know, the hotel decided that they didn't have any rooms, or they allocated you to a room with a queen bed instead of a king bed, or you didn't get your champagne on arrival, or whatever it might be, right. Or the tour operator, you know, had a clunky boss, instead of the most pristine boss on the planet with air conditioning and cookies on the seat product? 


But you kind of lay out these are the problems that you know, the typical things that we had to navigate before, the world that we live in is that different countries have different expectations around vaccinations and boosters and timing of that. 


That can change. Different countries are in different levels of exposure at the moment, different variants that are coming out, that can also change mandates that they're putting in place. They're known at the moment, but you can even see in our own country, how quickly it can change even within our states. 


So when we're talking about some of the experiences that the some of the challenges and obstacles that we may face, we're dealing with a lot of new things that we've never experienced before. 


So we're just finding it useful to have a different conversation with our clients, just to under to help you understand the environment that you may be going into when you're travelling, and what your level of tolerance may be, for things changing and just to help you think through how you might react, not so that you don't go on the travel. But just so that we can, we know how to best partner with you. We know what level of support you may require. We know the frequency of communication you may want from us, the degree of the communication, your expectations around that just so that we know how to work with you. 


I think that that is a good conversation to have. It also places in the clients mind an expectation that they are responsible for the decision to go on the trip. They're responsible for how they respond to things when they're on that holiday as well. And they're responsible for making sure that they have communicated any particular expectations with you as a travel agent around what they may need from you at what level of emotional care, essentially because that's what we're talking about not tactics, not tactics to solve a problem. It's emotional care that they will need from you at that point in time.


Ros: If clients were actually really honest with me at that point, I'd be like, near Sorry, can't work with you.


Clare: And that might be a legitimate thing at the moment. Okay, yeah. 


Ros: Oh yeah, absolutely. Making choices about who you work with right now. You absolutely have a choice. And I think I can meet those experts.


Clare: I don't see that. Yeah, if this was my client, and they're going to, you know, flip out completely have a meltdown, on holiday around these unknown unknowns that absolutely nobody in the world can control. At the moment, I don't think you'd like to have to make a decision. I don't think I'm not for that. I don't think I'm the best person, I do that. Like when I don't just take clients on and go, oh, yeah, you want some, you want some coaching, you want some counselling, you want to do some psychology work great, let's just, we've never met before, let's just have a chat. And you know, I'm going to book you in for a year and see how we go. I always have a session where it's let's just get to know each other, let's get familiar. Because if I don't feel that I'm a good fit, and what and similarly, if the client doesn't feel that I'm a good fit, then we get to choose, I get to redirect them to somebody else, that is actually going to serve them a little bit better. And they get the choice to say actually play your style and approach isn't a good fit for me. 


So it's, it's the same level of respect in any kind of dynamic where you're providing a service and someone's receiving that service. It's, you know, that somebody doesn't have to go with you. There's other people out there that they could choose from. Yeah, and similarly, you don't have to work with a client, there are other clients out there that you could choose from, as well. So you can be a little bit selective at this point in time, and I would probably recommend it just for your own sanity.


Ros: I think you've definitely touched on something there. Because even as COVID hit and travel industry, you know, we're all scrambling trying to bring clients home and, you know, move things around and adjust and fight, you know, for clients to get credits and refunds. But in that time, there were so many people that I was personally surprised by my own client base that really like their true colours came out. 


And I was then able to go, oh, I don't think I want to work with them anymore. Because they didn't have the same values as I did, not where I felt like, there wasn't that level of trust, where I've always said, I am here for you and I will do everything I can I'm on your side. But then the backing or the you know, I had clients say your business is going to go under give me everything right now, like always annoyed and pissed off. I was in disbelief thinking, how could they say that about me. 


But I've seen that time and time again now over the last couple of years from travel advisors all over the world, in similar situations. And that's heartbreaking because it's an attack on us all how I felt, you know, the attack personally, they obviously, who I am, how we come through that? You know, yeah, because that confidence level has also been shattered, in a way.


Clare: And I think it's important, and if you know if I can indulge for a little bit of just kind of explaining a little bit, the psychology of what's happening for people, yeah. So that you can probably understand, you know, why are they lashing out at me? Right? How do they enter into your question? Do they not know me? And have they had they not been listening all this time when I said that I would have their back and I and why are they morphing into some ridiculous person that apparently is now very selfish and doesn't care about their clients. And he's obviously just holding on to money for you know, she didn't cables. To pay electricity. Like, who knows what random stuff goes on in people's head? Right. Okay, so let me see if we can explain what's actually going on. So I'm gonna give it share a bit of a personal moment. 


So during COVID At some point, I was sitting there and I'm quite being a psychologist. I've always been fascinated in people and just how we think and how we respond to things, right? Because it's, let's be honest, sometimes we react and respond in pretty logical what I would call a logical predictable kind of way. And then other times we do stuff that even we sit back and go, what was that? Who was the Addison? That just what? Why did I do such a thing, right? And I find it really amusing and really fascinating. 


So during COVID, I found myself to sit in there one day, and I'm like, Why am I feeling like that languishing state? Why am I feeling this way? What's actually going on? Because I can take COVID away from it in any given day, I would be doing exactly the same thing I still will have would have gotten up, worked in my home office, worked with my clients online, had the same kind of a lunch, I would have done exactly the same thing. So what is my problem? Why am I feeling this way? And I sat there and I went, that's what it is. It's the lack of choice, lack of power and lack of choice. 


So even though pre COVID, I would have had exactly the same day that I was during COVID, during COVID, the fact that I couldn't do anything else, even if I wanted to the fact that that power had been taken away, the liberty, the choice had been taken away, my options, my freedom had been taken away, without my permission, for whatever varying levels of degree of belief or whatever that everybody has in, you know, I'm not going to get into that, because it's just a myriad of things. 


But irrespective of what your belief is, what how much you, where you sit on the whole decisions that have been made, and the way that people have reacted and responded doesn't really matter. The fact that you had choice before, and then you had limited or no choice plays with your mind a little bit. Right?


It has a massive psychological impact. was, that's the bit if we're going to use the word unprecedented. That's the bit that I find has been completely unprecedented by people hadn't completely overlooked. Just the psychological impact of taking away freedoms and liberty and choice from people of choice. Yeah, at the pace at which had happened as well. Right. 


So it was overnight in some cases. And so what that means when you couple that with as well, that it let's say you didn't agree with it, let's say you sat on the fence of I don't understand, I don't know why I don't necessarily agree with the degree of this, or whatever it may be. And Pete, there's a whole range of things in which people, you know, think about this. If you also, if you felt that way, and you also didn't have felt like you had an avenue to express your opinion, to be heard, that your thoughts on it mattered that your opinion mattered. 


And also, it's very complex, but and also, if you did actually express something, but then got shut down by the people closest to you, or that it wasn't understood, and you didn't feel safe to actually express it anymore. What that does is it builds up a level of frustration that sits in there for somebody, right? I'm feeling out of control. I'm feeling helpless, I'm feeling hopeless. I feel like I'm not saying that I'm not heard that it doesn't matter. And these are all core things for well being. 


These are people who want to know that they are saying that they are heard and that they matter. They want to know that they belong, they want to know that they have a level of freedom to move around and express themselves and have power of choice over what they do in their day, small things, and big things. And all of that got shaken up, removed, limited, whatever the word might be for people. 


So what happens psychologically for people is that it just caused a lot of chaos in the mind, it caused a lot of fear. A lot of fear that when miss understood that when wasn't expressed by people wasn't dissected by people. So the moment that they get to experience life as it was before, whether that's even something as simple as being able to travel interstate and book a holiday, yeah, in just a different state. And they're going to engage with a travel agent that's going to help them get their life back. And an obstacle happens, and the travel agent is seen as being the one to blame. Yeah, then you're going to cop it.


Because all of that pent up frustration, all of that pent up anger, and fear hasn't been able to be released to anyone else. So you're the first person that they've been able to come across that has the ear, right? That is listening to them, that is trying to help them achieve something. And so when it doesn't quite go the way that it should have or the way that they would like it to, then you're going to cop the anger that they are feeling towards other people towards decisions that are being made towards what's happening in the world to feeling out of control, whatever it is that they've associated with internally, that they can't express it, they can't dissect it. 


They can't make sense of how they will express it to you. And it will come across to you. Totally not fair. I agree with you. It is not fair. Right? It is absolutely not fair. And they don't even know that they're doing it. They don't even know that. That's the reason why they're doing it. They're just angry. They're frustrated. And you're an outlet.


Ros: Oh, yeah, I take it personally, though. So how do we protect ourselves in that way?


Clare: Yep. So to not take it personally, the key thing is to say, when you hear someone lashing out like that, you say this person's in pain. So you have to sit back and say, take a deep breath. Number one, take a deep breath and then say, if this wasn't about me, let's assume that I am actually a good person. 


Let's assume that I still have those values that I operate by. Let's assume that I still care and have a duty of care towards this client. None of that's changed. Right? So let's take it with euros. I would say none of that has changed. In fact, it's probably gone up another notch. Right? Yeah. 


So if you know that to be true about yourself and None of that has actually changed, then great. It possibly means then that this person that I'm dealing with is in a bit of pain. And I don't know how long they've been in that pain. They're frustrated. I don't know how long they've been frustrated, they're angry. And I don't know how long that's been going on for. And I'm the first person that they feel that they can share that with. Now, I'm not gonna go so far as to have you think that's a privilege because I think that might be stretching it a little bit. Right. But it does. It does help you trigger a bit of compassion.


Ros: Oh, that makes me angry though. 


Clare: Okay, we need to move from anger to compassion. Start that journey. 


Ros: I do. But there's a part of me that is so hurt that I get angry. I mean, I move through it. I'm very quick to be able to recognise those sorts of things and move through them, but my initial reaction is big. 


Clare: Well, okay. And so just so everybody that's listening can understand I got a very visual idea than what Ross was actually feeling.


Ros: I can’t see it. It’s PG rated. 


Clare: Okay, so just so if that's true of all the people, then it's also to review whatever you have been feeling. 


Ros:  Because I've got that pent up frustration and all the rest of it as well. But I'm swimming like a swan here. I'm trying to keep it cool, calm and collected and the legs underneath it just go under 100 miles an hour.


Clare: Yep. However, when you get that client that's angry with you and is showing a bit rude, right? You never buy back, of course, because you're professional. But you do have that internal anger that rises up internally. And you don't have an outlet. Because if you lash back at the client, you would probably lose that client, you wouldn't get that business's reputational risk. 


So you have to hold it in. Right. Yeah, yeah. So as a travel agent, first of all acknowledge that the person is going through something right. 


So stuff, yeah, it's their stuff. And you can normalise it. What I would do with that is say, I can hear your anger, I can hear you're frustrated. That's a very common thing that I'm experiencing at the moment. 


And it's, it's unfortunately, I'm finding that I'm on the receiving end of that anger and frustration more than what I am more than ever, right? Yeah, more than ever in the past. And I get it. I understand, you know that you're angry and frustrated, right? 


So just normalise that and kind of that's you putting up with by saying that you kind of put up a wall to say, I get you a feeling this way. And I get you're doing that to me and I get it. But I'm here's my wall, and I'm reflecting back. Right?


Ros: Is it okay to say that?


Clare: Not in those words, particularly, but just that I know.


Ros: I hear that you are angry and frustrated. I understand. You know where you're coming from? People?


Clare: Yeah, correct. Yeah. So people want to know if you remember that, at the core of it. People want to know, and this goes for you as well, that you were seen, that you were heard and that you matter, right? 


So just simply say that, I hear you. I hear your view on this as important. I understand you're frustrated. If I was in your situation, I'd be frustrated to right, normalise it just go, I hear you, I see you, you matter. You matter to me. I don't want you to be feeling that way. And I am doing my best to eliminate that for you to make this a bit smoother to get the best answers I can for you. I am doing my best as I possibly can. You know, like you, you're operating in a lot of uncertainty. 


So am I our industry is very uncertain at the moment. Now that's not your issue to take on. That's mine. That's my job. That's why I'm here. So I get you're angry and you're frustrated. It's probably a good thing. And you could kind of laugh, it's probably a good thing. I'm not sharing my anger and frustration with you. Oh. 


So actually to kind of, you know, shed the light on to open the doorway to say, have you actually considered that you wouldn't actually say this, but it's, you know, saying it light hearted like that. He's saying to the client, have you actually considered that it's equally chaotic and stressful and uncertain and frustrating? And yet for me? Yeah. Right. But if you say it in a very light hearted kind of way, or you don't say anything at all. Okay, if you can't say it light hearted, don't say anything at all, because the person may receive that as a negative or sarcasm. 


So then it's then equally important for you as a professional to at the end of the day, or at the end of each call, just sit there and say what do I need to unload? What came my way today that I need to unload? What is actually relevant feedback for me? Did I actually drop the ball somewhere? Did I not communicate in an open or transparent way? Was I actually afraid of this client and how they might react if I gave them this information? That wasn't certain. Am I a perfectionist? And is this getting in the way of me being able to deliver on time Certain information. 


So just during that self reflection and going, what do I actually need to take from this? And what's everything else that I can just dismiss? Yeah. And getting into that habit of saying, what's the relevant feedback? What's the honest conversation I need to have with myself? What can I now just dismiss? And like, go off? Yeah. Okay. It's doing a bit of a Mental Cleanse. Yeah. And emotional cleanse at the end of the day, even throughout the day, if you need it, even if you just acknowledge within your body, if you just sit there for a little bit and say, What am I feeling?


Ros: What am I feeling? What's going on? For me?


Clare: You know, I'm feeling a bit of pressure in my head. What am I feeling? Yeah. Is it? Is there tightness in my chest? Am I feeling sick in my stomach? You know, what's, where am I feeling it and just move, just breathe and move and release it. So you don't need to do a massive Deep Dive. Don't imagine that a psychologist is there laying you down on the couch and asking you 50 questions about your entire life. Sometimes it's enough just to say I'm feeling in my head. So I just need to close my eyes, I need to think of a you know, a stream and I just need to breathe, right? Or I'm feeling it in my chest. 


So I'm just going to sit there, I'm going to stare or stand or sit doesn't really matter. And I'm just going to move my arms in an open manner and breathe and encourage my lungs to expand to release the tension that's there. Yeah, okay. Yeah, just some simple breathing. I kid you not. The one thing that I have been saying for the last two years to my clients, if you're feeling anything, that is icky. I don't care what language you put on it, if it's the end of the day, if it's icky, breathe, if you're not sleeping, breathe, if you're stressed, breathe, if you're scared, breathe, just breathe, but not the shallow breathing that we're doing. 


The really deep breathing. Why that's really important is because it takes your body and your mind out of that fight flight freeze response, which is stress. Yeah, and I'm not being chased by a sabre-toothed Tiger, there is no threat, I'm very cool, calm, collected, and then enables you to think better. 


So you'll think a lot more clearly, if you don't do that, your ability to think, your ability to solve problems, is severely diminished, and your immune system actually goes down. Okay, so you're compromising your immune system as well. So, a minute of breathing every time you're feeling overwhelmed, stressed, fearful, whatever the emotion is, that you don't want to have sends a very clear message to your body, I'm not stressed, I'm not fearful, everything's fine. And the better part of your brain will kick in to help you make better decisions.


Ros: Ah, I love that. So, I mean, from here, we have the choices on how we can react, and how we can respond, whether it is to the fear or the uncertainty or feeling out of control. And there are many little things that we can do to claim it back and take care of ourselves, which is what he's saying. So overall, you know, we have that power of choice. 


Clare: We can't have you, that's the only thing, the only thing you have choice or power over is yourself. You have no control over other people. And you have no control over outcomes. You just know you just don't write you never have. It's not like we, it's not like we did and then we lost it over the last few years. 


You never had control over people. And you never had control of outcomes, because they always involve other people and things outside of your control. You can influence it, but you can't control it. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Just that, in and of itself, is quite difficult for people to wrap their head around, right? What do you mean, I don't have control over other people. 


Of course, I can control the outcome. No, you can't. So focus on the if I had to kind of summarise that I would say for travel agents, I would say, focus on what you can control, the only thing that you can control is yourself, the way in which you are choosing to react and respond to what's going on in your industry, what's going on with your clients, how you want to approach your work, the attitude and the mindset that you bring to that the joy that you want to bring back to that the purpose that you have in the role that you play, you have 100% control, and choice over that. And do your best duty of care: use your values, your the way in which you want to operate, to serve your clients as best as possible, having open honest, transparent conversations with them about the choices that the consequences of the choices that they are responsible for that they are going to make. 


Ros:  Correct. So if they bring you to travel right now. Ultimately, it's their choice. We're not forcing them or pushing them but I do think that it's also up to us as travel advisors to still talk about travel and know that there are opportunities out there and if people do want to travel they can because there is also scared probably a word to use, you know from the consumers point of view the uncertainty they don't know what's possible and what's not. But as the experts as the travel advisors, we are in a position where I would encourage everybody to share their expertise and their knowledge to still give people the option or the choice. If they want to travel, they can still come to you for help.


Clare: And new options, new choices. Yeah. So if you look at the average person, when they think about going on a holiday, they probably think I want to go overseas to Europe, or to London or Paris, or to Ryan mortar. And if I think a little bit closer to Bali, to Fiji, whatever, right. But Australia is such an amazing country. And there's all the traditional places that we know, and all the big places that you think of to go to, but there's lots of hidden gems. And I've said this to one of our consultants who is also working with people in the travel industry as well. And I said this to her to also pass on to her group. It's such a great and unique position that you're actually in at the moment, if it's as a Travel Advisor, if you can say, Hey, I know you want to go to the Gold Coast for whatever reason, right? But did you know that there's a place near the top of New South Wales, it's actually the same as the Gold Coast, but less populated and you know, more pristine beaches or, you know, great restaurants there. 


And this is a cool little, you know, hotel, that several boutique little hotel, this lodge that's there, this Eco Lodge, whatever, that would give you an amazing experience, you want to try that instead, it doesn't involve you going over a border, or whatever it may be, right. So you if you can come up with really unique experiences really seek out different opportunities for people different ways in which they can explore their own backyard, rather than the traditional things of relying on people to come up with their own ideas, I think you've got a really cool opportunity to work with clients in a way that manages their expectations, and gives you a new sense of fulfilment and joy and purpose in what you're doing something different in this time, so I would, I would kind of encourage that a little bit as well. 


Ros: Yeah, I love seeing the advisors do them. And that's something that we've spoken about over the last couple of years exploring your own backyard, like what are the hidden gems? Where can people go and experience things? I mean, we live in Port Macquarie, so on the north coast of New South Wales, and for me, I am speaking to advisors, even in our region, as COVID hit and I will say why not encourage people to come to our destination? Yeah, you know, all the insider tips, you know, all the people here, you know, the fabulous things that can be done, encourage them to come into your own backyard. Oh, no. And there was a lot of uncertainty and hesitation around it. 


Because they were thinking, you know, we need to promote the world. And yeah, we're like, well, we don't necessarily need to have an opportunity, if you want to, to still explore right here. But I am seeing that all over the world. And I love that. So if you are one of those advisors that is promoting things close to your home, and you're sharing your insider tips and secrets, keep it up, because that is just showcasing your expertise to a completely new audience or even to those people that are already appliance.


Clare: Yeah, what makes you in my book, it would make you stand out even more and makes you extra valuable as a Travel Advisor, because it's, if you've taken the time to maybe explore and build new relationships with different hotels with different locations with different experiences in our own backyard. And you're prepared to do that now, then, when I do go back overseas again, you know, what are you going to do then? Like what Yeah, amazing experience that I haven't even thought of that I need to have that you're going to find for me, that would be totally unreal. 


Like, it's just it just elevates you a little bit more. Plus, it also serves the benefit of helping a lot of businesses that have really struggled during this time. So you can, you know, do that little social so called social justice, North social something. So you can more broadly have the word. Yeah. But you know, think more broadly about the community and how you can know, how social proof there you go, that all goes well. Yeah. Yeah, and help some of the communities that may be struggling, rather than, you know, go back to all the traditional ones that everybody expects to go to?


Ros: Yeah, absolutely. Awesome. Okay, so for now, Claire. Like humans, there are so many things that we can look at ourselves and say, This is who I am. And these are my traits. And this is what's going to help me in my business and help me move forward in this world. So you have some tools as well, that, you know, can help business owners and individuals really identify different things about themselves and help them in a position to grow. Can you tell us more about the Values Pendulum and the Thought Code?


Clare: Yeah, sure. I think that right now, any anytime someone can get a bit of information around, you know, their attitudes and beliefs or their patterns of thinking and how that's helping them, or how it could be, you know, preventing them or creating obstacles for them in the way in which they're approaching business or the way in which they're approaching life is really helpful right now. So valleys pendulum is, I would describe it more as a softer kind of entry for people that may not have done any profiling before, that are a little bit, you know, on the fence about it and just want to explore it a little bit want to generate a bit of self awareness around? Okay, well, what are some of my attitudes and beliefs? And how is that impacting the way in which I'm viewing my external world and influencing or colouring if you want the choices that I'm making for myself?


Ros: Okay, so why would somebody do one of these things? Like why would somebody go and do a, like a profile to begin with? Yeah, why would we do that?


Clare: That's a great question. So self awareness, self awareness is the first thing, right. So for any, and I'm a big advocate of this said, if you, if you want to create more choice in your life, if you want to improve any area of your life, if you want to, you know, if you want to create some change, you just simply have to know how you think you have to understand what are the attitudes and beliefs that are leading to an influence in the choices that I make? What are my patterns of thinking that play into the way in which I solve problems, the way in which I communicate with people, the way in which I choose to act? If you don't know that information? How do you possibly create the change? What do you know? What do you need to change? What are you, what are you going to be pointed to right? 


So it's if you don't have that kind of shooting in the dark? And just assuming that you either have the answer, or you look at what everybody else is doing and assume that's relevant for you, which it really isn't. It's a very personalised, tailored approach that you need. And you need to understand, you know, what your preferences are, what your tolerance for certain things are? What are some of the attitudes and beliefs that are really well ingrained? Or some of the attitudes and beliefs that you know, you could adapt as well?


Ros: So would have potentially even started this process? Like when you're born with your Dasein? Yeah, and and like, like, oh, well, no, I'm an infamy. I'm a Virgo. I'm a perfectionist there, too, am I? 


Clare: Yeah, it's exactly that way, leaving the horoscopes, the star signs. Absolutely. Yeah. Right. You may buy into that a lot of the biggest thing is that you, whatever you learned between zero and seven that you took from your parents, or the attitudes and beliefs that you got, and values that you got installed during that time. Some people never question. So they get into their 30s and 40s 20s 30s and 40s. And then you ask them, you know, what, what's your attitude or belief towards that, like I've always had that what they don't realise is a cane between zero and seven. Now, as a seven year old, you've got very limited experience, you're just taking everything that your parents said, right, you don't question it. 


And we're not taught to actually question anything. We're not taught to question our attitudes and beliefs. So we end up in our 30s and 40s. Going, why does this not make any sense? Why am I still doing the same thing? And getting the same result? Why can I change this? Why can I, you know, create a new habit a new behaviour, and you've got to look at what's the underlying attitude, belief, you know, value system, past experiences that have influenced who you are, up until this point, so that you know where to change that, because otherwise, we end up as a 35 year old using the seven year old thinking. 


Ros: Oh, so I still have six months to influence Jackson's mind.


Clare: Yes, actually, legitimately do. It's useful just because it's such a critical skill, I think we should teach it in schools Just start to understand our own minds a little bit better understand what we're thinking how that leads to the feelings that we have, and the actions that we display, because they're all choices, all of it is a choice. And if we keep making the same choice without knowing that's what we're doing, then we're building a superhighway in our brain that, you know, for a pathway that may be completely ineffective or maybe leading to the less than ideal outcome of what we want. Right? Okay. 


So that's where the profile tools help so valleys pendulum, it's more that entry into it will, you know, start to tell you there's his seven different ways there's some different lens that you could use to view your world. And there's, you know, consequences of that both positive and you know, not so great. So limiting and, you know, limitless if you want to resourceful and, and resourceful ways in which you can view the world as a result of the seven wins. So you'll know, what's the combination that you're using? 


And what's that link to in terms of the underlying attitudes and beliefs? Yeah, if you're wanting to take more, say, of a business approach, if you're wanting to understand, Okay, what's my thinking? And how is that impacting the way in which I'm reacting and responding within my business to my clients, the way in which I'm approaching my business? If you want to take more of a business focus and see how you are connected to your business and how your business is a reflection of you, then I would do thought code,


Ros: It's suitable for even solo solopreneurs? 


Clare: Absolutely. Yeah. So we've had a whole bunch of people go through it. People that are solopreneurs tend to find that the individual thought coat, their thought pattern, whatever is strong within their pattern of thinking is also strong within their business, wherever they get some challenges in their pattern of thinking is also a challenge in their business. So it's, it's quite reflective. 


Okay, so the business is an extension of the person. So it's all code, you know, helps try and a bit of a light on that to say, oh, okay, well this has come back in and profile is playing out for you in business, do you sometimes find that this is the way in which you make decisions? Is that working for you? What if you could, you know, solve it a couple of different ways or make decisions in a different way. 


So just create a bit more choice and flexibility in the way someone thinks, particularly in relation to business? So there's two different versions, there are two different, you know, profiles. Yeah, they're both focused around understanding the way that you think, because from there, emotions and actions flow. 


Ros:  So with any of these, like the, the purpose of having them as well is to is it to spotlight like where you're at right now, and then help you to, to grow? Or, you know, if you are showing certain patterns and behaviours, and they're playing out in your business as well, it's like, okay, well, how can we do something around this? So that's exactly what I do as well?


Clare: Yeah. And that's exactly right. So you know, all I always say to people, if what you're doing is working, then Rock on, right? Yeah, well done. Good. Keep doing that, rinse and repeat. But if what you're doing isn't working, if it's creating your pain, if it's creating frustration, if it's just if you want a different outcome, and you don't know how to get there, then finding out some information around how you're thinking getting, you know, shining a light on that. And highlighting, you know, one or two areas, it doesn't need to be a huge shopping list, in fact, that less is better. 


So one or two areas to focus on can completely transform the way that you are in life generally, but also the way that you are in business and can transform your business as well. So it's, it's useful to do, it's fluid, it's dynamic, it's relevant at this point in time, and it will change and shift over time. Now, if you're a bit hesitant, and you think you're I'm not too sure, that's fine, I also make that fine for all of my clients as well, nice, that's fine, though, you will reach a point where the pain will be big enough, and you will actually want to do something about it. So just be careful what you wish for, if you need the pain to be bigger, realise that you can't control exactly how that's going to play out. 


So for some people, it means that their business gets in, you know, very significant Dire Straits before they have to do something about it, it means that they're on the verge of bankruptcy before they do something about it. For some people, that means that their health has to really decline before they'll do something about it, like they'll be physically broken, right. So just be careful how much pain, you want to stack all that you feel that you need, before you do something. Okay. So I would always, always say, if you need to wait a little bit, if you're just a little bit unsure, do that, but just know when to draw the line, to then take the action to get the information that you need to create the change otherwise, you know, we just don't know where that pathway is gonna go.


Ros: No, that's right. Now there are a bunch of different tools out there. And we spoke about this briefly before I know some that I have done with disc profiling and Myers Briggs has been around for years and years and years. How is the thought code and the values pendulum different?


Clare: Yeah. So, you know, like I said, those tools have been around for years. Right. So I think they were developed back in the 1950s. 


Ros: If not, earlier, now, we're so different now than we were then. Yeah.


Clare: Think about it. Like, wait, that's 80 years ago. Yeah. That's before playing at an appliance film school. That's a bit silly. But just before we went to space is before the internet is before we had emails before social media, right? So the world we live in is so significantly and so vastly different to the world in which these profiles, the original profile tools were created. So you'll see a lot of them, they'll dismiss a lot of the oh, well, we're not in survival mode, because we have houses and we have access to water and blah, blah, blah. 


So yeah, we're but we're still in survival in terms of, you know, the threats that we have today come at us through social media, we couldn't have accounted for that before, right. You know, our world is threatening in a very new way in terms of making us feel safe and belong, and like we feel like we belong more than what it was, you know, 80 years ago, and we need to account for that psychologically. So that's number one. That's how we're different we're actually developed in this century. To address the challenges that people face today, right now, right now, not what we think it was 80 years ago. The second thing of why we're different is that we are quite fluid, and they're dynamic models. Now, what we mean by that is that if you were to complete your profile, you know this month, in values pendulum or thought code and did it again a year from now it will be different. 


Now it will be it could be vastly different. It could be subtly different, but it will be different and that is reflective of someone growing. So who you want to be A is very different to who you will be in the future and very different to who you have been in the past, then what a lot of the other profile tools do, particularly those like the Myers Briggs, and, and decider, what I call the four quadrants, so you come out somewhere in a box, they tend to limit people. So people tend to assume, Oh, well, that's who I am. That's who I've always been, because they tend to focus on personality more than anything else. And people see personality as being somewhat fixed. And it is trickier to grow and develop. 


But thinking is very fluid. It's very dynamic. It's very adaptable. It is flexible, it is agile, right? We're constantly building new neural connections, new networks in our brain. So it's useful to focus more on that than on his personality. So I tend to find that, you know, what are the profiles that lead to fixed mindset, they pigeonhole people, it becomes an excuse for why people can't be different, or why they're staying, you know, fixed to the way in which they believe that they need to be. 


So ours is about, well, this is who you currently are, this is a way in which you're currently thinking, which bits of it are working, that we want to retain, and amplify, and which bits aren't working, that we need to work on, for what specific outcome. And let's develop practical strategies for how you can do that. So that we're actively building new neural pathways in the brain to help someone grow.


Ros: Yeah. Oh, wow. Claire, like, This just blows me away. I love all of this stuff and learning about, you know, the brain in the thought process and understanding, you know, the psychology behind things. I find it so fascinating.


Clare: It really is. Yeah, it's so important when you finally, you know, when you understand this about yourself, as well, it's, it's the empowering word that's a bit overused, but it really is empowering. It really does make you go, Okay, I understand myself a little bit better, understand those quirks that I've got my preferences for certain things, you know, this thing that I do that, you know, bugs me, and it's going to take me a little bit of time to overcome, but I will get there and I will, it is my choice as to whether I want to create a new way of thinking around that. Yes, I can do that.


Ros: Yeah, the power of choice. Yeah. Awesome. All right, Clare, I'm gonna finish up there. Because I know that you and I, as I said, we can talk for hours. And there are so many different things, you have such great insight, and the words that you use are so relatable, but just so easy to understand. And when, you know, people say, Oh, why aren't you talking to a psychologist, I'm like, you don't get it. Claire is amazing at what she does, but also, you just have this beautiful knack for things that are real. 


So thank you so much for all that you do. Thank you for being here as part of the travel agent, achievers, podcast and community. I can't wait to, you know, introduce you further into the community and get to know some of the members there over the next few months. But also for, you know, anybody out there that is stuck or lost, or really needed to hear this today, knows that we are all in this together. 


And there are tools, and there are resources here to help you move forward. And I encourage you to check out all the show notes and the information that we have on our website for this podcast episode. reached out to Clare, She's incredible. So thank you so much for being here today. And for your time, your knowledge and your expertise, I really appreciate you and everything that you have shared with us. So thank you.


Clare: You're very welcome. It's been an absolute pleasure and an honour to be on your podcast as well, I know that you take what you do very seriously. And I know that you're the community that you've got, you know, also values what they do, and they take their, you know, work in themselves quite seriously as well. 


So if there is anything that I can do to, you know, help improve that to, you know, ease some of the stress and pressure that people may be feeling or create a bit more choice for people then please let me know more than happy to, you know, work that out or, you know, put something together or provide, you know, anything that could actually be really helpful. 


So I don't like seeing people in pain. And if we can alleviate some of that and create more choice, then I'm totally up for that. So, thank you so much for having me. I hope it has been really useful for people. And please yeah, if anyone does have a question, please just reach out more than happy to help people. 


Ros: Thank you so much, Claire, everyone. I look forward to hearing your thoughts around this podcast episode. So please reach out. Let us know. And just Yeah, hang in there. You've got this and we're here for you. Thanks so much, everyone.


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